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Tiberius NoVegas
Undead Dragons Dragon Knights Inc
23
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Posted - 2017.05.30 14:14:54 -
[1] - Quote
Got this idea stuck in my head after reading a bunch of forums on caldari-minmataer factions ship. Make it a thukkar "pirate" faction with the following bonus's. It doesnt seem balanced but the best way for me to shake the idea is by seeing proven (or lack there of).
Minmaater bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to projectile damage Caldari Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 15% bonus to sheild booster amount Role Bonus: 50% bonus to ECM range 50% bonus to salvage rate |
Tiberius NoVegas
Undead Dragons Dragon Knights Inc
23
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 06:23:38 -
[2] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Rhaegon Aesir wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Higher DPS lower ECM strength obvious bait falcon?
So a rook? you're an idiot as for the idea no this ship fills no empty niche in eve and i feel you want it "just cuz"
I never quite under stood this, why does a ship need to fill a niche? I say this because if you look at all the eve ships on a spectrum, everyone all ways gravitates to certain ships due to the min-maxing nature of eve. we end up with ships like assault frigates and cruisers being pushed out of there niches by other ships. balances of course eventually occur to make them relevant again but then what happens to the ships that displaced them in the first place? now they are displaced in a niche. given the sand box nature of EVE online, making ships to fill a niche dont make sense to me but rather they are just an inevitability of how capsuleers use the ships. Now obviously CCP has made ships to fill certain roles in order to make all ship hulls relevant...
to be honest im not as concerned with the relevancy of a ships use as much as i am with relevancy of lore. I rather see more ships introduced to expand on the lore. the only other thing that would make any lore sense then ECM would be a bonus to target painters...Target painters are good for what they do, but for what they do there are many other peices of equipment that can be taken that are far more relevant to a ship in combat. plus projectiles with target painters sounds like a sniper kind of rig, that something that already exist.
but you do bring up good points on why ECM range wouldnt make too much sense.
Thukkars are known for roaming so there combat would probably be more along the line of hit and run as minmatar ships are not exactly known for there ability to tank. |
Tiberius NoVegas
Undead Dragons Dragon Knights Inc
23
|
Posted - 2017.06.03 10:06:46 -
[3] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Tiberius NoVegas wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Rhaegon Aesir wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Higher DPS lower ECM strength obvious bait falcon?
So a rook? you're an idiot as for the idea no this ship fills no empty niche in eve and i feel you want it "just cuz" I never quite under stood this, why does a ship need to fill a niche? I say this because if you look at all the eve ships on a spectrum, everyone all ways gravitates to certain ships due to the min-maxing nature of eve. we end up with ships like assault frigates and cruisers being pushed out of there niches by other ships. balances of course eventually occur to make them relevant again but then what happens to the ships that displaced them in the first place? now they are displaced in a niche. given the sand box nature of EVE online, making ships to fill a niche dont make sense to me but rather they are just an inevitability of how capsuleers use the ships. Now obviously CCP has made ships to fill certain roles in order to make all ship hulls relevant... My point is ships are being added to EVE when all there doing is displace other ships from there "Niche". CCP seems to be more focused on content then balance... to be honest im not as concerned with the relevancy of a ships use as much as i am with relevancy of lore. I rather see more ships introduced to expand on the lore. the only other thing that would make any lore sense then ECM would be a bonus to target painters...Target painters are good for what they do, but for what they do there are many other peices of equipment that can be taken that are far more relevant to a ship in combat. plus projectiles with target painters sounds like a sniper kind of rig, that something that already exist. but you do bring up good points on why ECM range wouldnt make too much sense. Thukkars are known for roaming so there combat would probably be more along the line of hit and run as minmatar ships are not exactly known for there ability to tank. The reason why ship need a niche is so we don't get completely useless ship that have no point to existing or ship made obsolete because the new ship is just trampling over other hull's niche. A big part of why the AF are dead right now is the T3D being flat out better at anything an AF used to be used for. Your proposition is essentially a mash up of some racial bonus from 2 side that have no direction. It's only possible use would be lolbait and even that...
I get what your saying but let me explain a different way. The Typhoon, what niche does it fill? its a BS with a bonus to missiles and projectiles. but the Minmatar already have a projectile BS that gets better bonuses, and the Raven can out do the Typhoon with missiles all day. The only thing that makes the Typhoon different from the two mentions ships is the Typhoon is armour tanked compared to shield. Now note that when it comes to BS's the Gallante and Amarr have ships that can out do the Typhoon in armour tanking. So the Typhoon doesn't necessarily fit a niche that already isn't filled. Yet its still used. If the point of making a ship is to fill a niche then CCP would have to rework all the ships from the ground up and make them significantly different from each other to fill those roles. this raises the question of what niche do the new CONCORD ships fill? I see a large demand for a cargo ship between transports and freighters but this "niche" has been and left for years? a Niche is obviously not the driving force for CCP to introduce new ships. enlighten me and tell me what would you recommend as a niche that needs to be filled? |
Tiberius NoVegas
Undead Dragons Dragon Knights Inc
23
|
Posted - 2017.06.03 17:02:24 -
[4] - Quote
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Speaking of Minmatar: wouldn't the game be more balanced if Minmatar ships would be optimized for shield tanking with a shield booster preference than the current half-armor half shield mess? People keep saying that specialization is better than being a jack of all trades. If Minmatar as a faction isn't specialized for any kind of defense (active shield tank in this case should be the niche of the whole faction) shouldn't it have the worst tank in the whole game? To be honest, it's quite hard to follow the rules of the game if the devs keep ignoring them regularly.
People keep worrying about "niche role" and "balance" while many ships refuse to follow their niche role, and looks like we never had a real balance here to break.
This is something ive been ranting about for a while but concluded CCP cares little for our opinions. I wish they would take all the Minmatar ships and bring them on line with each other in terms of there capabilities. For example, i like to play Minmatar ships with missles. so looking at my options for missles ships i have the following.
Frigate - Breacher Destroyer - Talwar Cruiser - Bellicose Battlecruiser - Cyclone Battleship - Typhoon
So i start with a breacher and its a decent ship to start with, i have my missle bonus and a bonus to sheilds to make it tanky. then we upgrade to the Talwar were the ship seems to be more focused on speed tanking...ok a bit of a change but ill work it. then i upgrade to the bellicose were i have a bonus to target painters...well now im feeling more like a support then anything but ill make it work. then i move on to the Cyclone where hey im back to missle bonus's and a nice sheild tank again and i finally finish it all off with the Battleship Typhoon...wait a sec i got no skills in amour at this point... |
Tiberius NoVegas
Undead Dragons Dragon Knights Inc
23
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 02:19:15 -
[5] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Wait can you really not think of anything the phoon excels at better than any other BB? Or even any other ship? Or were you just being hyperbolic to make a point
Every if that were true a ship that already exists but has no niche is not the same as adding one that fills no gap. If anything it reinforces my point. Adding a ship to the game isn't just "okay we'll put in a new ship" and poof it's there. It's time and resources that are not being used elsewhere. And it's not just a one time investment either. Ccp have added in ships before simply on a "wouldn't it be cool if" and i can only thunk of one tune it paid off and is not simply a constant drain on the game.
The kill boards prove that every ship in EVE Online is used...jsut some get more use then others. as far as making every ship relevent, I think CCP needs to stop going around fixing ship by ship and look at the ships on a spectrum. As of right now, ever time they "balance" one ship they end up pushing another out of its role.
while on the topic i have to address the Angel Cartel, they are good with projectiles and get a bonus to warping...so they use guns and move fast, isnt this suppose to be the basic role of the Minmatar? |
Tiberius NoVegas
EVE University Ivy League
23
|
Posted - 2017.06.11 01:07:11 -
[6] - Quote
Asset Confiscation Officer wrote:1. Why is this ship needed.
2. Show that no other current ship fills the need.
3. Explain why the need is so great that using precious coding time to make it is justified because a need is one thing but a need great enough to deserve coding and upkeep coding is another thing altogether.
4. And most importantly understand there is no race called the minmataet or any other massacre of the word Minmatar.
1. The Minmatar-Caldari need a pirate faction to fill the void between these two factions. as of right now with the absence of one there is no incentive for pilots to train these two ship skills together exclusively except they just like those two faction ship lines. This will also make more sense in game lore as there is no real strong reason for them not have formed a pirate faction other then the same old "friend of my enemy" argument that i believe is debunked by the amount of lore showing they have and still do work together in limited scope.
2. A Logi pirate faction ship doesnt exist. im not saying the example i gave should be the one used but i believe there is a huge potential for a logi pirate ship. The thing about logi ships is that you can remove them from the game and it will impact the balance a bit but it wont be game breaking. logi just change up the normal dynamic of a battle by swaying the battle in a non-standard way. Its impossible to prove something is needed in the game when its an enhancement instead of a balancer.
3. i direct your attention to the new CONCORD ship line. please defend CCP's decision on this, this "precious" coding is already being used up by CCP on a lot of things that the game doesnt need.
4. I love the Minmatar but i think one thing many Players agree on is that the Minmatar are a mess. Maybe a mess isnt the right word but the Minmatar ship line up is definitely all over the the place. No other single faction requires as many different skills to be just as proficient then the Minamatar. This affects game balance as a Minmatar player with the same SP as another player in any other single faction is going to have gaps formed in the required skills needed for his ship line up. This has been around for years and CCP should bring the entire line up into coherency as it would be a better use for coding then added a new CONCORD ship line. |
Tiberius NoVegas
EVE University Ivy League
23
|
Posted - 2017.06.13 08:39:32 -
[7] - Quote
StarterrorPrime wrote:From my understanding, a Minmatar Caldari hybrid ship seems like a great idea because of Minmatari projectile weapons focus and Caldari use of Missiles, but as people said before, Minmatar fleet doctrine is diverse to say the least while Caldari is streamlined in a way. The ideal hybrid would be a Missile Sniper platform with a bonus to missile damage and a boost to shield extenders and boosters in terms of efficiency, while keeping the ship preferably within known lore, making it a prime candidate for the Archangels since their fleet doctrine favors that sort of thing. Now as far as size class, I would think cruiser or destroyer would be perfect for this type of vessel without being over the top in terms of cost, still there is quite a bit of clash in fleet design doctrines as far as Caldari Minmatar design operates.
While this is a possibility, i dont know enough about Archangels lore to say they have a strong Minmatar-Caldari connection to make them exclusive to those two factions. While there lore supports the fighting style and lore of pirates, there is nothing says they exclusively use missles or projectiles either...
StarterrorPrime wrote:Your average Minmatar ship is meant to be a Junker that is able to take the odds and ends of other modules that other races use ergo the ship that blows up other ships and takes their modules to improve upon the hull. Hell, take your average Maelstrom, send it on a rampage through Amarr and Caldari space, its gonna end up taking all the resistance modules from both races, slap it on the hull then you have yourself one tanky Maelstrom, and given enough phased plasma rounds, there will be tears. A fun experiment I did, I plucked modules off dead Archangel rats and outfitted a Rifter for Ganking so that pretty much summizes Minmatar ships
Where is this lore written? The Minmatar created there ships from other ships a long time ago. the modern day hulls are very much there own design now. The Republic Fleet has there own modules because there manufacturing them in Minmatar space and not salvaging them off other factions. There is speculation that the Thukkers still do this but mainly for profit and not for equipping. |
Tiberius NoVegas
EVE University Ivy League
23
|
Posted - 2017.06.13 10:14:39 -
[8] - Quote
Dior Ambraelle wrote: Yup, it looks like the lore is the reason why Minmatar is kind of all over the place, but then shouldn't they have bonuses to all types of turrets too? You can't balance a game around it's lore, it's like the function follows the shape, if anything it should be the opposite way: The people of Minmatar were the slaves of Amarr, so their ships are designed to be the opposite of what Amarr has: active shield instead of passive armor, and anti-armor projectiles against the anti-shield lasers. Also, shield boosters are easier to make because they only need energy while armor requires a lot of materials, so if you have nothing then you will probably go the easiest way you can find. It's not hard to make both the lore and the logic work.
I dont subscribe to this theory. The Rifter, Rupture, Hurricane and Typhoon are the Armour tanks in the Minmatar line up...They would be severely limited by this in all Minmatar Fleets as logi would be force to dual rep armour and sheilds to properly support them. Over all this would mean a harder force to support.
The only advantage the Armour gives this ships is that they would excel in Fleets supported by Gallante Logi. This raises more questions about the lore as why you dont see mixed armour/sheild in other factions. SO we have to assume based on the ship line up on the other factions that each faction is suppose to be self sufficient, once again leaving the Minmatar line-up in question. |
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